Rachel Thompson [00:00:01.140]

Hello, lovely writers. An editor can help a piece become clearer while leaving the writer's voice intact. They don't always do that. It doesn't always work that way. But how do you know when to suggest a change and when to leave something alone? In this conversation, I'm speaking with writer, editor, and publisher Kathryn Mockler. We talk about trusting a writer's voice, knowing when a piece has been worked too much, and learning not to take the difficult parts of editing personally. This one is for you editors. Kathryn's most recent publication is Send My Love to Anyone, and she brings experience from both sides of the editorial relationship. We talk about what being edited has taught her, why writers can disagree with an editor, and how sometimes an editor's job is to save a writer from their own editing. I want to welcome you, Kathryn. Thanks so much for being here today on the podcast. To begin, I'm wondering if you could give listeners a snapshot of your editing life right now. What kinds of projects, conversations, or reading are holding your attention in the moment?

Kathryn Mockler [00:01:06.820]

Thanks so much, Rachel. I'm really happy to be here. Right now I'm publishing Send My Love to Anyone, which I've been working on since 2021, January 2021. I call it a personal newsletter slash literary publication, and I publish my own essays and other writings and thoughts and things on there, but I also publish original writing and excerpts of forthcoming works. I run an interview series and a column by poet and author Kirby of Poetry Is Queer and the forthcoming Fairy. Another interesting editing project that I'm doing is I'm editing my aunt's fiction collection. She recently passed away from Alzheimer's, and my uncle has entrusted me with editing her works. And she left over 600 pages of stories, fiction and nonfiction, and I'm publishing some of them on Send My Love to Anyone. And I'm also seeing if I can find a collection in there that I could potentially submit to publishers. So that's been a really moving, interesting project, and I can't consult with her on the editing. So I sort of have created some rules for that project that I'm abiding by to respect her voice and any editorial changes that I think would fit.

Kathryn Mockler [00:02:36.640]

So that's been a really interesting project. I also have my uncle who I can talk to about these things as well, and my sister who's also a writer. So I'm kind of doing the first pass and then we'll kind of consult with them as we move forward.

Rachel Thompson [00:02:52.680]

That's wonderful. Yeah, I saw that you'd posted about that on Send My Love to Anyone because I'm a subscriber and I thought that was really lovely to hear. But for some reason, I guess I didn't pick up that she had passed. And so what an interesting dimension that makes as an editor then to make these choices.

Kathryn Mockler [00:03:09.520]

It started before she had passed, and then when she was in the later stages of Alzheimer's, and then, you know, so we're just continuing on. And she writes very autobiographically. So I'm also editing a work where someone is writing about like my parents and my grandparents, you know? So it's a very challenging editorial project because I feel a great deal of kind of moral obligation to her voice and what she is saying, trying to do. We're doing a family one with all the works, and then I'm going to be selecting one to potentially send to publishers.

Rachel Thompson [00:03:48.980]

One of the reasons that I've been speaking to you, I think, now over the years, and why I want to speak to you now, is you've worked across literary magazines, but actually in particular, you've started several literary magazines, which I always find so fascinating. And you've worked in anthologies as well. Is there a part of editing that you feel most pulled towards, what feels most alive for you in that process? Why do you do this?

Kathryn Mockler [00:04:13.680]

I definitely do this because I want to. I know it can be a great way to meet other writers and publishers and to sort of network and all that. And potentially maybe some of that was in there when I started, but it's very laborious to do this kind of work alongside a full-time teaching work and my own writing career in multiple genres. So probably someone who had their head on their shoulders wouldn't kind of take on so much, but I actually like participating in this way. I just really do love being involved in these kinds of conversations, and I like shedding light on work that— I just feel really passionate about. When I started with The Rusty Toque, which I co-founded with Aaron Schneider, who now runs The Temz Review, one thing we were particularly interested in at that time was experimental writing, which, you know, a lot of literary magazines wouldn't publish experimental works. It was very categorized. I think that's changed now, but it was sort of exciting to bring multimedia projects, multi-genre projects, and experimentation and art as well to the forefront in that particular project. Then I was invited to be the Canada editor of Joyland, which sort of shone a light more internationally because it was situated in both Canada and the US.

Kathryn Mockler [00:05:46.350]

The publishers at the time, Emily Schultz and Brian Joseph Davis, are from Canada located in the US. And so it had a bit of a broader scope. And it seemed in that thing that I was just reflecting on in Joyland in particular, but also in some of the other things I've done, is that I published a lot of early works of poets who were trying fiction for the first time or early in it. So I had published early fiction by Canisia Lubrin. Mm-hmm. Souvankham, [name unclear in supplied transcript: “Kema Bonga”], Hajer Mirwali, and Madhur Anand. They were all poets who were working in fiction for the first time and then have gone on. So that was sort of neat to kind of capture. Yeah, a lot of poets came to me probably because I was a poet and then I was now doing this prose project. And so that was very cool. And then with Watch Your Head, it was an activist project. It came out of some of my on-the-ground activism and then was all around climate crisis. The new one came about, Send My Love to Anyone, because I had signed the contract for my short fiction collection.

Kathryn Mockler [00:07:02.400]

It initially seemed that I had submitted it as poems, and then we decided, no, this is definitely fiction, but I needed to expand it. So I had a contract, and then the pandemic hit, and I was editing this climate journal. And so I just sort of—couldn't meet those deadlines. And fortunately, Book*hug was really great about deadlines. And then eventually in 2022, Hazel was like, you're meeting with your editor, you're doing it now. And so then I had to finish it. I'm glad she kind of came in at the right time. But yeah, so it started as I thought, well, if I write about the writing process and I'm writing, and then I'll be able to get back into writing and kind of recover from all these multi-crisis. So that's how it came about. And then I can't just do things by myself. So then I ask people, oh, do you wanna write an essay? Or can I interview you? And it's just that kind of instinct of sharing and working with others kind of kicked in. But this one's manageable because there's no grants involved in this one, which really burned me out in a different way.

Kathryn Mockler [00:08:10.230]

I don't wanna be a grant writer. Yeah. If people don't like what I publish, they can unsubscribe and they do. And most of the content is free for everyone for 30 days. And then some things is under a paywall, but I also like if someone can't afford it, you know, I do comp subscriptions and I have built in a flexible schedule. So it's 1 to 2 a month, 8 to 10 months a year. And so that way, as I need to take a break, Mm-hmm. I take a break and I don't need to explain that to anyone because it says it right there. As opposed to saying I have to show up every 2 weeks, then you burn out. And so I'm in this kind of happy place where I'm connecting with others. I don't accept submissions of original work because I just don't have the time. It's too much time and I'm not being paid. All the money that comes in through paid subscriptions goes back to paying writers. I don't take money for myself. So again, I'm still providing this labour, and so I can't add on to it. But if people are interested, there are many ways to tell me what you're working on.

Kathryn Mockler [00:09:22.590]

You know, that's kind of a way to kind of side submit. Do you have a new book out, or did you just publish something? Like, if you share it with me, I'll look at it, and then I might invite you to do, you know, not, I can't always say that, but I'd be able to, but I don't just publish only people I know. And then publicists send me press releases of new and forthcoming books, and I'm always happy to do that, but I can't take on the labour. And it's a lot of emotional labour when you have to reject work. And that's what I didn't like about working on a journal. And then it's like weird when you go to an event and someone's rejected it, you know, it's easier to say no to a publicist. They're prepared and it doesn't get weird. And I'm just at a stage in my life where I just, I'm doing what I want because I like it. It's a personal thing, but I can't take on some of the stuff I've taken on in the past. It's just too much.

Rachel Thompson [00:10:17.890]

Yeah, I love hearing all of that origin. What brought you to here to now to Send My Love to Anyone? I also just wanted to just acknowledge how lovely that is that you were able to be that bridge for poets into fiction and that that trust was clearly there. There is a lot of trust and love for you as an editor. You know, I kind of feel that through the work that you've been doing over the years. Before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about what does editorial instincts mean? And I'm still going to ask you this question that I had on my list of questions, which is how have those instincts, whatever those are, changed as you move between all these publications and these very different purposes over the years?

Kathryn Mockler [00:10:58.670]

I think each publication has its own sort of energy. So as I was saying, Rusty Toque was sort of experimental and small press. And Joyland had more established writers reaching out. And then I was also committed to putting a lot of unknown writers too on that platform because it was a bigger platform. And again, I was always interested in the experimental, the blending of genres. So that's kind of my thing as a writer and my thing I'm really interested in, sort of the undefinable or categorizable. And then with Watch Your Head, I mean, I think that was a climate activist, so it was really focused on what the works were saying and providing different perspectives and for it to be really intersectional. And that's why on the anthology that was published by Coach House, there were like 14 editors. So I really was all about different points of view around the crisis. And then with Send My Love to Anyone, I'm sort of bringing that all together. My interest in experimental writing, my interest in social justice, anti-genocide, anti-imperialism, and of course feminist concerns, concerns of the queer and trans communities, and Indigenous writing and points of view.

Kathryn Mockler [00:12:22.220]

So my feeling now, particularly witnessing a livestream genocide that many people won't name— Mm-hmm. Or talk about is that I want to engage with writers and creators who have shared values, and that's sort of my interest now, and who care about the world and sort of wanna make it better than, you know, when we leave. And so, you know, when you're thinking about experimentation of form and collapsing category, that's sort of all in there too. That's where my interests are now, is supporting writers who care about the things that I care about, and writers from small presses and things like that.

Rachel Thompson [00:13:07.610]

I did see that you were talking about the personal cost of editing Watch Your Head. It sounds to me that you've created a really sustainable practice within Send My Love to Anyone where you can take breaks, but also there still are difficult things to talk about and write about and share.

Kathryn Mockler [00:13:25.170]

Yeah, I think what happened with Watch Your Head is I was already burnt out from activism and then I was channeling it into the climate stuff. But the problem with that climate thing, and part of my learning through this, is really seeing how Western imperialism is causing all of these things. And so my thinking sort of as I moved through and learned more, my thinking sort of shifted as well, which sort of led me to sort of the activist type stuff I might do in Send My Love to Anyone, which I think is just really existing in the world. But yeah, I think what happened is I was co-editing the anthology that came out of the website Watch Your Head for Coach House. It happened right as the pandemic hit. And so, you know, I was dealing with the crisis, my own anxiety, the concern of the collapse of the world. So all of this was sort of hitting, and I was doing a lot of the admin work and then also working with 14 different editors who were soliciting and, you know, and everyone else is in the same crisis. And so I'm really glad it happened, but reading and having to reject people.

Kathryn Mockler [00:14:43.470]

on their feelings on the climate crisis was really hard, and I think it hurt some people too. And then the CBC didn't have a problem sharing our call for submissions, which then in turn we got inundated. But then when it came time to publish the anthology, we didn't get any press. So it was so infuriating. Like, I was like, yeah, it would've been better not to have just smaller amount of submissions to So that was a great thing to do, and I feel really good about it and what we documented. It's a wonderful anthology if anyone's ever wanting to teach about climate writing. It's such— it's art and writing and really beautiful. I feel really good about it, and I'm very proud of it, but I would not have been able to sustain it, so I closed up the website as well.

Rachel Thompson [00:15:41.290]

But it exists as a place people can—

Kathryn Mockler [00:15:44.030]

It's still on there. Yeah. And same with Rusty Toque. It's still, it's still there too. But yeah, sometimes like projects are good for a period of time and then they end and that's okay. Especially with something like this because it's so much my labour that is unpaid, which is fine. I'm not complaining about it, but it's easy to get excited and overly involved and I've had to be more balanced as I'm getting older and time's limited and I have different responsibilities. I'm not able to do what I was able to do 15 years ago, and that's fine. With Send My Love to Anyone, I was really happy to be free of any kind of financial support from the government because in the later months of 2020, as we were witnessing Israel's and the US's genocide against Palestinian people, I really felt that this project would be a place where I could share the work of Palestinian writers and then also provide resources for people to be able to contribute funds and things like that. Had I been funded by the Canada Council, you can imagine that people would've written in and the publication would've been cancelled or whatever.

Kathryn Mockler [00:17:01.850]

So I really realized I don't want money from the government for this particular project. I want freedom to do what I want and to support.

Rachel Thompson [00:17:13.450]

And it gave you more freedom.

Kathryn Mockler [00:17:15.300]

Yeah, it just gives me more freedom. Like, it's great to have funding, but when they take it away or the government changes or there's cutbacks, then you're dependent on this thing. So I really never would put myself in that position again because I felt like I was making selections so I could write something on the grant that we had a writer from a certain region or gender equity and all that kind of, you know, all of that's important to me, but it's different when it's being imposed as opposed to sort of happening organically. So I didn't like that about working in the grant system with literary journals. And I realized that's not me and I wanna be free to do what I want and support who I wanna support. And not feel silenced or, you know, and if people don't like what I'm doing, they're welcome to unsubscribe. And as I said, they do. I think you can't take it personally.

Rachel Thompson [00:18:08.980]

Actually, that's a thread I wanna pick up on, the personal part, 'cause you mentioned a couple times too about rejecting writers and the feelings that get tied up with that. I guess I'm wondering, how do you navigate that now? Or like, I guess it's maybe a bit easier with this project versus the one where you're getting all these submissions for one single anthology. And I also wondered if we can get into the submission side of things too. Like, so again, your editorial instincts, I guess, telling the difference between pieces that are not ready and one that's doing something unfamiliar enough that it needs a different kind of attention, which I think I'm speaking here about experimental writing, which you've been publishing for quite a while too. So within that are kind of 2 questions, but one is sort of like handling the rejection side. And then also being able to discern which pieces to maybe spend a bit more time with before outright rejecting and communicating with the writer.

Kathryn Mockler [00:19:03.600]

So one of my editorial tips that I learned early on is don't accept something unless you can accept it as is with a few changes. If there is a deal breaker, that goes in a letter before acceptance. Like, I'd be like, this story is working here, here, and here. If I were to work on it with you, I'd like to work on the ending because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And if that is acceptable to you, then it would be an acceptance. When I was dealing with unsolicited submissions, that's how I would couch something I wanted to work on, whether it was experimental or not. But where things can get muddy is if you accept something that isn't ready and you as the editor know it's not ready, and then you give sometimes an experienced writer, editorial feedback, they can sometimes not like that. And then you're stuck in this position where you don't feel the quality of the writing is going to match what you want. Because editing is subjective too. I'm not saying that my notes are the best notes, but if there's a deal breaker, I would never fully accept them.

Kathryn Mockler [00:20:18.470]

I would just say, this is what my notes will be. If you agree with those notes and wanna change it, then it's an acceptance. If not, we can part ways. So you do that up front so they know exactly what you're going to say. Because I think there's this idea, I mean, a lot of people in the literary journals are not getting paid. And so you're not getting the kind of heavy editorial experience that you might at, say, The Walrus. I've been edited before by people who were being paid to edit. It's a very different experience. I got edited at Quill & Quire. I'm like, oh my God, it's a very, very different experience. They get in line by line. Really push you and push and push. And it's not the same as having, you know, a few lines edited. Now, someone who has a lot of energy in a literary magazine who's not getting paid may edit like that, but I found for time, I had to accept the pieces that were pretty close to being finished. And that's just the reality. Like, I just don't have time to do that. If something wasn't ready, I would give the notes and then sometimes ask them to resubmit it or just say, this would be my editing of this piece.

Kathryn Mockler [00:21:28.770]

Is that acceptable to you? And most often they would say yes. But what I don't try to do, and I did when I started out, is surprise a writer with a ton of edits without letting them know before it's accepted, because it can feel too much.

Rachel Thompson [00:21:46.780]

Yeah. And you don't know how experienced the writer is and able to accept that kind of critique and feedback.

Kathryn Mockler [00:21:53.410]

The suggestion at the point that I'm accepting it, everything has to be, this is just a suggestion. You can take or leave it. And if it isn't for me, then it's not accepted. It would be a conditional acceptance. So I'm not doing heavy editing. A lot of pieces are kind of ready to go. The exception is occasionally if I've solicited an essay for Send My Love to Anyone and I'm working on it with the writer over a period of time. Again, that's very slow cuz I don't publish a ton of them. And I'm investing in the writer. I've asked them for a particular reason. Then I'm willing to put in that kind of time because again, I'm not being as overburdened. So that's just the reality of it. I mean, other editors may be doing other things or maybe not as burdened.

Rachel Thompson [00:22:43.060]

That may have to do with reputation as well, I'm thinking, because when I edit at Room, it's the same thing where I don't have a lot of time to spend with work that's not quite there. Once in a while there's a piece and I just can't get it out of my head and I'm like, okay, I'm going to go into this with the writer and see what happens.

Kathryn Mockler [00:23:00.410]

Sometimes there's a writer where it's like, I like the voice. This piece isn't doing it. Can you send me something else? If an editor asks to see more work of yours, they really, really mean it. And so it's really important to send it right away or say, oh, I'm gonna write something new or something because nobody wants more submissions. And I published writers where they sent me one piece. It just like didn't quite do it, but please send me something else. What I'm saying is I like your voice and I wanna support you. This piece might not be fully there. And nobody's doing that just to be nice. They're actually doing it against their own health and time.

Rachel Thompson [00:23:41.360]

Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't even make sense in some ways because again, we get so many submissions and I suspect you're the same where you would get a lot of high-quality work, but yet there's something about this writer and piece that has struck you that you wanna reach out to them?

Kathryn Mockler [00:23:58.110]

Yeah, I think when that happens, it's a voice that you haven't heard before. That's usually when I'm compelled to work on it with someone because the voice has just arrested me and I wanna help see it through. I have a screenwriting background and I have a kink for narrative. Like, I'm obsessed with deconstructing narrative. It's very interesting to me, especially as an experimental writer. You need to know what you're subverting when you're doing that. And I just find that structurally I have a really strong hand. That's one area where I'm very strong. I understand how narrative works and when you're subverting it and when you're just not developing. So if I have a narrative note, I feel pretty confident in that. But other than that, I'm not a heavy-handed editor. I like to be a light-touch editor. I like to be really careful about preserving the voice, and often the writer will change things at the last minute, and I have to say, no, no, no, no, go back to your first instincts. You know, so sometimes being an editor is saving the writer from their own editing. I've had a couple writers do that where they just go in and I accept a story and then they change everything and they think it's going to get published.

Kathryn Mockler [00:25:20.290]

I'm like, no. You've got to listen to your own instincts. Those are good.

Rachel Thompson [00:25:25.160]

I have had that experience as well. I mean, I feel for them because they submit, often wait a while, and then in the meantime have been tinkering with the piece and send it in. But maybe it's also that they've been in a workshop and they've taken too many notes from other people about their writing, and they haven't had the confidence, like you're saying, just to trust their own work and their own instincts.

Kathryn Mockler [00:25:45.850]

I mean, that is sort of one of the downsides. I am a professor in a writing programme and I do workshop stuff, but I'm also a little anti-workshop myself. And I think it can be useful for being able to talk about your work and sort of getting people's responses. For new writers, it can be helpful for understanding structure, but not everything has to be worked to death. Sometimes I find editing is also saving writers from that idea that they have to work and work and work and work on it. Not that you don't work on it, but just sometimes people erase their own voices as they get close to the publication of a piece. And I have to tell them, no, this is what's good about it, is your voice. And you had it in things that are a little rough around the edges. That's a good thing. When things are overly polished or tied up with a bow, that's work I'm not interested in.

Rachel Thompson [00:26:40.950]

You were talking about how you've been building the kind of literary community you want to participate in through this project.

Kathryn Mockler [00:26:48.010]

Did I say that? I may have said that.

Rachel Thompson [00:26:50.980]

I think I've summarized it. I feel that way because you're talking about being able to talk about the things that you are concerned with and others are concerned with. I'm wondering editorially if there's a community aspect here. Is there an editor, a publication, or practice that has shaped the way you work and that you would like other people to tune into? Maybe.

Kathryn Mockler [00:27:13.420]

You learn a lot about editing from being edited and being edited for Anecdotes by Malcolm Sutton was an amazing experience. One of the reasons I was delaying sharing the book, the first draft, kind of when I added more stories, is because I felt like intimidated and I didn't want him to read it. But finally Hazel came in and said, you're sending it. Just send whatever you have. But anyways, his approach, and this would not be sustainable for anyone. He read many, many, many drafts and I kept adding stories and then we'd take some out and then I'd add more. But he was so gentle in his editing approach. Like it felt, it was like a pillow. Everything was, perhaps if we're looking to take a story out, it could be this. And have you considered that this ending could be developed? Do you know what I mean? It was always very perhaps and consider. And I was like, oh, I see what you're doing and it's working very well. And even though you know that someone is trying to be respectful and have their criticism land softly, you really appreciate it. It was a very vulnerable book for me.

Kathryn Mockler [00:28:26.490]

And just having an editor who was so careful with his language and how he approached the subject matter and everything. So it really helped me, like, just in my own teaching and editing, like, just to be really respectful. Because sometimes I can be a bit robotic and, as I said, a bit blurty. And people have told me my emails are abrupt. I'm very warm in person, but I can sometimes be a bit abrupt. So it just really reminded me. So that's one person. And that's Malcolm Sutton, who's also a writer and a designer.

Rachel Thompson [00:29:02.620]

And he's at Book*hug, right?

Kathryn Mockler [00:29:04.390]

Yeah. The Conscious Style Guide: A Flexible Approach to Language That Includes, Respects, and Empowers by Karen Yin, Y-I-N, and her site Rabbit with a Red Pen. I discovered, I don't know, about 7 years ago. The book is relatively new in the last couple of years. But what she does is she helps writers be their own sensitivity readers around language for how people are described and how they want to be described and kind of the most current language around that. It's very helpful for screenwriters who are often describing different people. And so you want to, particularly in screenwriting, because if you describe someone in a way that shines a negative light on you and it has nothing to do with your characters, Her site is a great resource for using inclusive language and language that respects people across all different ways of being in the world. And so it's a great resource for that, all kinds of intersectional language around editing. So her site is great. There's lots of free resources on that. And I also have her book and it's a resource. Of course, the Chicago Manual of Style and my friend Tim Freeborn, who I seek out with all my grammar questions.

Rachel Thompson [00:30:31.860]

I'll make sure to put all of these in the show notes as well, just if people are madly trying to jot this down. I'm really surprised because I had not heard of Karen Yin's work, so I am going to immediately head there and figure out what's up and get that book as well too. So thank you.

Kathryn Mockler [00:30:48.300]

It's great for all writers. I found it really helpful for screenwriting too. I think is sort of shocking when you first start this, and maybe you've experienced this too, is sometimes people aren't that nice to you. And you have to remember you're dealing with very sensitive work, particularly if you're rejecting. So sometimes, like, a lot of things can happen. Like, often if you're soliciting writers, you can be ghosted, or people will agree to things and not follow through. Sometimes you get hate mail for rejecting things once a writer sent in something: “I reject you. You don't reject me.” Well, no, actually you sent me your piece, but anyways, sometimes like if you are new to giving feedback and you're not phrasing things as gently as Malcolm Sutton does, you might get some pushback on your notes. It's not all good vibes. And I think when I first started out, I took it really personally. If someone who I knew personally just didn't respond to an email, and now it's just part of it. Yeah. Sometimes people don't respond to you because they don't wanna say no. And so it's just easier to not respond. I don't love it.

Kathryn Mockler [00:31:58.450]

I'd rather have the no, but that's okay. I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a difference. I'm doing editing and publishing for the love of it. It is not a career for me and I'm not paid. It's a different kind of editing experience. So it can be easy in that way to take things very personally. And so I've just learned to not do that. If someone just never answered an email, it doesn't mean I won't try them again, or it doesn't mean like I think they hate me. I just don't take it personally. Or one time I, with the Rusty Toque, someone had errors or something like that, and they get really snappy, like, how dare you publish this, blah, blah, blah. People can just be really mean to editors. That's just the way it is.

Rachel Thompson [00:32:48.590]

You're bringing up things that I'm remembering as well too. And I think you might be better than me because I do sometimes take it personally, but then I just have to kind of be like, okay, people are doing their best.

Kathryn Mockler [00:32:59.050]

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like sometimes writers aren't always showing up as their best selves. And then at the same time, I've made lots of mistakes. It's going to be a combination of you're going to make mistakes as an editor. Like there was a recent plagiarism issue with CV2 magazine, and I think the magazine handled it really well and most people were supportive. And then other people were like, How dare you do that? How dare you not know every single work that was published in Canada? I was like, sorry, I don't. I would've probably made that same mistake. Like, I find that mostly I've made wonderful friendships. I've gotten a lot back. It's not why I do it, but just in terms of learning about new writers and engaging with people in literary community, it's like mostly been positive. And I'd say with Send My Love to Anyone, the other thing is expectations are very low. No one is funding it. I'll even say somewhere on there, and if I don't, I gotta put it on, that there will be typos. I do not have an editor. There will be typos and errors and things.

Kathryn Mockler [00:34:02.420]

That's part of me being able to do it. So it's a bit different than being affiliated with something like Room where the editorial expectations are higher and you may have proofreaders and stuff. There'll still be mistakes.

Rachel Thompson [00:34:14.090]

And there's such a team behind every issue there at copyediting, proofreading. There's a lot happening that people don't realize, I think, too.

Kathryn Mockler [00:34:22.490]

And even then there'll be an error.

Rachel Thompson [00:34:24.820]

I have made big embarrassing mistakes before myself, for sure.

Kathryn Mockler [00:34:28.340]

Yeah. That's the one thing. So for those who are embarking on this work, if you get offended by every time there's like a harsh word, you just sort of learn how to be and how to be okay with any of the negative stuff. But that's a small part of it. The problem is, is it stings. And then it can prevent people from continuing on. That's why I like tell people with my newsletter, like, oh, I just sent my newsletter out. I got 20 unsubscribes. And I do that to be transparent because I think when people are writing newsletters that aren't literary publications like mine, they get more offended that someone is unsubscribing from them. So it's again, all this sort of rejection that sort of happens with self-publishing your own newsletter or editing other people's work. There's just yuckiness that happens and it's just part of it. And if you let it eat you alive, you will become sort of paranoid and think everyone hates you. But it's just some people in that moment aren't gonna be great. But having been an editor, and you may feel this way too, Rachel, I'm very appreciative of editors.

Kathryn Mockler [00:35:39.550]

And I'm very respectful, even if I disagree with something. I'm very respectful. Like, I'm honest about if I don't agree with the note and I'll explain why. There was something I had published and I really liked the magazine. I respected the editor. I just, they misinterpreted something. And so we had a conversation, like, you don't have to agree with everything the editor says. And I try to make life easier for the editor by getting back to them quickly and providing them with everything they need and all that kind of stuff. Because for the most part, a lot of it is free or low-paying labour.

Rachel Thompson [00:36:16.290]

What you're calling to mind too is, as an editor, if I do make a note and the writer comes back and says, I'm doing this with intention, this is why this is this way, then I just believe them and think, okay, great, they know what they're doing here. A lot of times with emerging writers, they're not quite sure and they've just tried something on and then they'll say, okay, great. Yeah, that does help improve things. The times when they say, I've got this, I'm like, I trust you. You've got this. Let's go.

Kathryn Mockler [00:36:42.120]

Yeah, exactly. That's where the conditional acceptance can be helpful with newer writers who might not be used to feedback. And then it's like, well, if you really don't like feedback, then you don't need to publish and write. You know what I mean? So it can just save a disagreement if I'm upfront. They're making the choice whether to accept these notes or not. You know, I try to avoid conflict wherever I go, so that's how I, uh—

Rachel Thompson [00:37:11.170]

I think that's a real choice too. Like, you're empowering them to say, it's totally up to you. If you want to publish with me, I'm gonna have some things that I'd like to work with you on. But if you don't, also go forth and publish elsewhere.

Kathryn Mockler [00:37:25.450]

Exactly.

Rachel Thompson [00:37:26.490]

Keep that confidence that you have in your project. I'm thinking of the feedback that you're talking about, Sutton, with the gentle feedback and how sometimes I'll work with writers too who will say to me, oh, do your worst. I like feedback. Tell it to me straight kind of thing. And I actually have over the years, I think, just realized people really need to know that you know what they're doing. It always has to start with what's working instead of, no, let's just focus on what's not working. No, it has to start with what's working. Because you have to demonstrate your understanding of the work before you can get into the perhaps,

Rachel Thompson [00:38:02.410]

or

Rachel Thompson [00:38:02.490]

you might want to consider, or—

Kathryn Mockler [00:38:05.950]

I follow kind of a hybrid of Liz Lerman's critique model that is very sort of focused on the writer's goals and desires. And again, I do a hybrid of it, and the students can choose, you know, if they don't want their classmates to ask them permission to give critical feedback, which is sort of at the heart of her process, we all do these things called meaning statements where it's not just whether I like or don't like, it's like, how am I interpreting the work? What do I find meaningful? What am I taking away as a reader? And that part's not negotiable. Everyone has to have that because, as you say, even if you think you don't need it, you need to know, you need to hear it.

Rachel Thompson [00:38:47.580]

Is there anything else you want to leave creative writers with about being edited, editing others, or participating in literary communities?

Kathryn Mockler [00:38:55.840]

Well, for the editing part, as we were just saying, as editors, like, ah, different turn-takings, but, oh, writer, they're mean to us. But also the other thing too is don't be afraid to disagree with an editor. Just because someone gives you an edit doesn't mean, like, editing is subjective. And I do take a light touch and I'm focused on the writer's voice. That's just me. That's just what I do. Sometimes I've had editing experiences where it's really intrusive and it's like I have to pick my battle of what I'm going to accept or not accept. And I like it when an editor is open to being disagreed with. And so don't be afraid to stand up for your work because again, if you're publishing in university journals or whatever, you, sometimes the editors are inexperienced. And they're learning too. And editing is subjective. And so it is important that you do have to navigate, is what they're doing, you know, gonna harm you and harm the work? You know, so you do have to like stick up for yourself without harming the relationship if possible. You know, I kind of take an approach as a writer as I pick my battles.

Kathryn Mockler [00:40:17.210]

And I often learn from the editing. Like, I've been edited lightly, I've been edited heavily. I like the heavy edits, particularly on essays. It can be just illuminating in so many different ways. Like, I love that, but I'm also really clear on what I'm trying to do. If you're a more inexperienced writer, it can be kind of hard. So if you find that you are stomping down every note as if it's a fire to be put out, then that may say more about you. Mm-hmm. And less about, do you know what I mean? Like, not every note is gonna be bad. Be open, but also it's okay to say no. It's okay to say, no, I really, this is really important to me. Or it's okay to say that. Don't be afraid.

Rachel Thompson [00:41:01.300]

Yeah. And maybe even trying on that same voice of, I really see what you're doing here, but have you considered that I put this in because I wanted it to be done in this way?

Kathryn Mockler [00:41:11.750]

Sometimes I get too grammar-y because I taught Essay Writing 101, and I, what I do is I'll do an edit with all the commas in the places between independent clauses and things like that. And some writers do that on purpose. They don't want it in there. And I had this one writer say to me, I'm aware of the rules of grammar. I'm choosing to not punctuate for this reason. And I'm breaking them. And so I always have to, you know, that's always a fine line. I kind of am obsessive about commas, but, you know, as long as it's not a deal breaker, I don't really care if someone doesn't like a note or whatever. I put my deal breakers up front, and then other than that, I just wanna work with them to help them have the piece that they want out there. So.

Rachel Thompson [00:42:01.600]

Yeah. And I would love to hear that from a writer who says, I'm aware of the rules of grammar. I am choosing, so I'm doing something else here. This is great.

Kathryn Mockler [00:42:09.380]

Yeah.

Rachel Thompson [00:42:10.260]

I'm going to presume that the best place to find you is on Send My Love to Anyone on Substack. Is there other places you want to send people to?

Kathryn Mockler [00:42:18.050]

Yeah. Instagram, @themockler is my handle there. I'm on Bluesky, but I don't use it at all. But I do have an account there, but I don't use it. I, I haven't found another Twitter replacement really. So I think for me it's just Instagram and, and Substack.

Rachel Thompson [00:42:39.860]

I'll make sure that those are in the notes for this episode. And just thank you so much for taking the time with me and sharing all of your wisdom and experience when it comes to editing and just all the experiences with the real journey that you've been on through these different publications and what each one has meant as well too. It has been, uh, really great to hear. Carrianne Leung will be on an episode not too far from this, and we talk about the piece that she published with you.

Kathryn Mockler [00:43:07.740]

Is it the climate one?

Rachel Thompson

Yes,

Rachel Thompson [00:43:09.190]

you're right. It is the climate one. Yeah.

Kathryn Mockler [00:43:11.440]

I forget the name of it off the top of my head, but it's such a beautiful piece of writing. She just recently shared it. She has a Substack now, and she just shared it. I reread it again. I was like, oh, that was such a meaningful piece for how to live in the world amongst, you know, at the time she wrote it, it was around climate, but around all these like collapses and wars. It's such a meaningful piece. And also she has a new book out called Wonderland Road, and I blurbed it and also recommend that.

Rachel Thompson [00:43:45.630]

I'll add these to the notes for this episode. It'll be in her episode as well, but thank you for shouting out her book again. I thought it was kind of neat that I interviewed both of you in sequence because there's that relationship as well too. So.

Kathryn Mockler [00:43:57.160]

Yeah. And also she co-edited a series with me on Send My Love to Anyone called Reflections After the Giller Boycott. So where we solicited several writers who supported the boycott. That series is coming to an end where we have about 4 more pieces to publish, but that was a really meaningful project as well.

Rachel Thompson [00:44:19.200]

There'll be a lot of notes in this one, and I suggest you look everything up that we've talked about here because there's a lot of goodness to read. Thank you so much again, Kathryn, for being part of the Write, Publish, and Shine podcast. I really appreciate your time.

Kathryn Mockler [00:44:33.290]

Thanks so much for inviting me. Great to chat with you again.

Rachel Thompson [00:44:37.950]

That was my conversation with Kathryn Mockler. I keep coming back to Kathryn's reminder that writers can hear an editor's note and still stand by what they meant. Being open to feedback doesn't mean giving up your own judgement about your own work. And I appreciated what she said about roughness too. Not every edge needs smoothing. Sometimes that is where the voice is. You can find Kathryn at Send My Love to Anyone on Substack and at @TheMockler on Instagram. I'll put those links along with the books and resources we mentioned in the show notes. Thank you for listening. I hope this conversation helps you trust your voice a little more, whether you're sending out work, responding to notes, or finding your way through another draft. The Write, Publish, and Shine podcast is hosted by me, Rachel Thompson, with sound editing by Adam Linder. To learn more about my work supporting writers, visit rachelthompson.co and sign up for my weekly Writerly Love Letters packed with encouragement for your writing journey. You can also get my draft diagnostic for free on my website. Again, it's rachelthompson.co. I would love it if you could share this episode with other luminous writers by directing them to rachelthompson.co/podcast or by searching for Write, Publish, and Shine wherever they get their podcasts.

Rachel Thompson [00:45:55.210]

I acknowledge the Al-Muzina Bedouin lands in South Sinai, Egypt, where I recorded this episode. One concrete thing we can do as artists is sign on to PACBI, the Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel and as a way to support a free Palestine and a way to not support the Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people. I mention this because I'm very proud that the magazine where I'm an editor, Room, has signed on to PACBI and is continuously vocal in this matter and was one of the first magazines, in fact, to be very vocal in this matter. One of the literary magazines in so-called Canada. So to learn more about PACBI, you can find that information at bdsmovement.net/pacbi, P-A-C-B-I.