55 // Handling Rejection of Your Writing and Finding Strength in Community

Rachel Thompson: 00:01
Welcome luminous writers to the Write, Publish and Shine podcast. I am your host, author, and literary magazine editor Rachel Thompson. This podcast explores how to write and share your brilliant writing with the world. In each episode, we delve into specifics on how to polish and prepare your writing for publication and the journey from emerging writer to publish author.

00:26
Welcome luminous writers. This is part two of conversations with four writers from my Lit Mag Love Course community. In the last episode and in this episode, we hear from Ellen Chang-Richardson, a poet, writer and editor of Taiwanese and Cambodian-Chinese or Chinese-Cambodian, as she puts it descent, whose writing has appeared in the Fiddlehead, Vallum Contemporary and Watch Your Head, among others.

00:53
Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri, a Norwegian-Canadian translator and writer, who had her first story published in English in 2013 and has since chosen that as her writing language.

01:05
Lori Sebastianutti, a writer and teacher and former managing editor of the Fertility Matters Canada (FMC) blog. She has published in The New Quarterly, The Hamilton Review of Books and Nurture.

01:17
And Angela Wright, a writer, historian, and political analyst based in Toronto, Canada, her creative nonfiction has appeared in the Fiddlehead, The New Quarterly and The Brooklyn Quarterly.

01:28
They are back this time to talk about rejection and resilience when it comes to writing and publishing in lit mags. You probably already know this or have heard that rejection is a big part of writing to be read and submitting your work to lit mags. You probably also wish you could snap your fingers and become immune to rejection. But sorry, it is unavoidable. And it just feels bad. We are wired for that. And unfortunately, were we to totally avoid feeling bad about rejection, it would make us pretty bad writers, to be blasé about being turned down, would likely require turning off all our feelings and feeling is an occupational requirement for us writers.

02:13
But before we leap right into those bad feelings about rejection, I asked the writers with us to go through some of the things they learned, they can do to minimize the chance of rejection for their work. This is not a bullet proof list again, sorry. But here are some mistakes from which you can learn.

02:32
You will recall last episode Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri, told us about how she writes in every genre there is from quite traditional to very experimental. So, she has tailored lists of places where she sends her work. But she was not always so clear in her submissions. Early on when she was submitting to journals. She made the mistake of forgetting to include a cover letter.

Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri: 02:55
I have done every single thing that you can do wrong, like send the wrong attachment, realizing afterwards that, “Oops, that was 50 words over” and easy to edit out. But these things happen. You just have to be kind to yourself and say,

“I’ll try to do better next time”.

There is no point in beating yourself up over something forever. The first time I did not know, I was so completely green here that I had no idea. I did not think to even sent a cover letter. I do not know what I wrote in that piece. It was on Submittable.

03:29
So, I did not know how to do these things. I had no idea what I was doing. I did on that first submission to route, I did receive a personalized rejection, which I think made it much easier for me to keep going. So that first encounter be sort of positive really helped me, but I am pretty sure I did not have an actual cover letter. I did have two pieces published at that point, but that was not completely empty. So, I think it the whole letter may have been just a bio, like a very short bio.

Rachel Thompson: 04:01
Now forgetting to send out a cover letter is not always a big deal. I find in general writers agonize over the cover letter much more than they need to actually, some journals want them, others do not mind either way. But Hege does touch on a mistake she made within those cover letters that I think is really important to note. And what she picked up after taking the Lit Mag Love Course in 2017.

Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri: 04:26
After 2017, when I learned how to do these things. I did certain writing, real cover letters. And I can see those, first one is how I sort of tried to exaggerate my experience which was not much and now sort of paring it down and tailoring it to where I am sending it, so, even stuff like my bio will change slightly depending on what corner of the market I am aiming at biggest. There are some names that will be a little more enticing and what makes them want to look at my piece, compared to others. So, if it is something really experimental, then I will name certain places I have been published. And if it is more mainstream, I will name certain others. I am not just tailoring whereas some stuff, but also the person myself that I mentioned in my cover letter.

Rachel Thompson: 05:20
That makes me so giddy to hear that she learned from those early submission fumbles, and she now tailors what she says in her cover letters, just like she tailors where she sends her writing. Lori Sebastianutti also found that when she did not reflect as much on her submissions, when she was not as careful and methodical, that got her into trouble early on.

05:44
In our previous episode, Lori talked about how her writing process evolved away from starting with looking at journals, and what they want to instead starting with looking inside herself for the story she wants to tell, and then finding the fit with the journals who have published those stories. But it took a while for her to learn how to look for that fit.

Lori Sebastianutti: 06:06
So, I wrote a prose poem that I was really proud of, and really happy with. And I thought, do not ask me why I thought this, but I thought I need to submit this to Brevity. And Brevity, I did inquire, they do publish the occasional prose poem. But Brevity is known for like fast pace because it is short form. It is 750 words, so, fast pace/nonfiction, so, real stories, but told almost like fiction in a way with like a narrative arc and all that stuff. And here I am submitting this like dreamy, circular prose poem, which is what a prose poem, I thought, is supposed to be. Needless to say, it was a rejection. But I think once again, this was back in 2017. I was just starting, and I was not really thinking through. Looking back really, should I have submitted that prose poem to Brevity? Probably not. But hey, it was a learning experience. So, I think once again, when editors say,

“Read the journal, know the journal.”

I mean, they are not just saying that to hear themselves speak. It is really true. So yes, I learned from that for sure.

Rachel Thompson: 07:11
“Read the journal”. Yes, that is vital advice for writers. And I hope it helps encourage you to do the same. If you have been submitting a while and starting to get those rejection letters, Ellen Chang-Richardson has another note, all writers should listen to, from editors.

Ellen Chang-Richardson: 07:30
I want to talk about like resubmissions. Like, sometimes you will get a form rejection, which is fine. And if you really like the magazine or the literary publication, then definitely resubmit your work to them. But then sometimes you are just like,

“Okay, maybe I wait a few issues or whatever, see if my work really fits them or not”.

But then sometimes you get a really personalized rejection, where it is something like, “This doesn’t fit the other pieces we’ve selected for this specific theme, but please send us your work again in the future”. And I was actually having a conversation with my poetry collective seven. And Margo LaPeer shared a really interesting article that was talking about how a lot of writers, primarily who identify as female wait, before they send their work back out again, they wait either six months to 12 months. And the article is saying, instead of doing that, just re-sent new work, immediate, like at the next submission cycle, do not wait two or three submission cycles to do it, especially if it is like, personalized

“Send us more of your work”.

Then they are like,

“Oh, you actually took what we said to heart”.

And they are also remembering you, because it is within a specific amount of time, instead of like three to five years down the line. So, I think especially with like form rejections from a literary magazine that you genuinely admire, or like, especially with personalized rejections submit that work again.

Rachel Thompson: 09:01
That is a hard agree with me for what Ellen had to say about submitting the work again. And you may recall, Angela Wright told us in the previous episode, how she really closely pays attention to lit mag editors, and often picks fit for lit mags based upon those editors’ tastes and experiences. She also shares this insight about what does rejection or acceptance even mean.

Angela Wright: 09:26
I mean, everything in terms of who gets accepted, you do not know the nature of that person’s relationship with the editor, or they could know each other personally, that person could know if they did not MFA, they could have all these other connections in network. So, there is just so many different moving pieces that go along with why a piece may be accepted or rejected. It is always really important to remind ourselves that we are professional writers and that- I know we do not always like, think of it this way. But writing is also a business in a sense. So, there are always going to be business decisions that are made that we may not understand or agree with. You also do not know who is fighting for you. I mean, it could be that your piece is rejected, but there was someone in the room who was like, I love this, it needs to be in there. And either there was another piece that was like just slightly better or that more people like or there could be that there was a piece that was recently published, that was very similar to yours. And it is really hard to know exactly what the conversation is. And so, you should never assume necessarily that a rejection means that people did not like it.

Rachel Thompson: 09:46
Lori Sebastianutti, again, describes an experience of being on that other side reading submissions, and affirms what Angela has to say. And also, my own experience as a lit mag editor as well.

Lori Sebastianutti: 10:55
That recently was a reader, not a judge, but I was a reader for the birth story contest out of the Doula Support Foundation in Kingston. And so, I was the first reader. And yes, like I have so appreciated, reading all the stories, and it was so hard. The organizers said I need your top five. And I think she gave me 15 to read. So those other 10, like, I felt heartbroken, but I get it right. And no, I did not laugh at anybody. Like I thought that their stories were awesome. And I learned so much from stories, even ones that I did not choose. So, I get it now.

Rachel Thompson: 11:28
Lori did not always have that insight. Listen to how when she first started submitting her work, she felt about getting rejected. And that is something that happens to all of us, as we know. And she had a very different notion about what a lit mag editor was thinking, and then her evolution to change that notion.

Lori Sebastianutti: 11:46
Well, my relationship to rejection has evolved. I guess, like every writer, like at first, of course, it hurts. You take it personally, but I think I was embarrassed. Like, when I get a rejection, I would be like,

“Oh, my God, what did this editor think? Did they laugh their head off?”

Thinking,

“Who is she thinking, she can get into this journal?”,

I really felt that sort of sense of embarrassment. But I have learned that that is most likely not the case, they are probably not laughing at me, they are probably admiring me for trying and putting my work out there. And, just talking with other writers about rejection, so helps. And just that there are so many people who want a spot, and there is not a lot of spots. And you have to understand that tough decisions are made. And it is easy to hear that, but I think I have really let that sink in, like, I got a rejection not too long ago from this journal in the US Image. I have a subscription and I read it. It never hurt, I did not feel embarrassed. I think I am over that. But it hurt a little bit. But then I moved on. And I am like, “Well, I got other essays I want to write.

I will let that one sit for a bit. Maybe I will come back to it. Maybe I will change it. I’ll try another journal”. So yes, I mean, I think it always going to hurt a tiny bit, but I really do not dwell on them anymore. I used to dwell on them. And I have lost that sense of embarrassment. And I realized that, it is probably more admiration that editors are, and appreciation that you actually have an interest in their journal. So yes, it is definitely evolved. But what is helped, is talking to other writers, my writing group, like groups that we have in Writerly Love, or in Facebook groups, hearing about people saying like,

“Oh, this was rejected five times, and then it got published”,

or even just people saying,

“You know what, it’s rejected. And I will wait and see what to do with it, or I am going to send it out again, right away”.

All of that is very helpful.

Rachel Thompson: 13:32
Ellen Chang-Richardson, also found it hard to get those rejections at first, who would not? But then learned to appreciate getting any response at all.

Ellen Chang-Richardson: 13:42
Let us say we send out 10 submissions, and they go out there into the world. I mean, chances are that I am going to get eight rejections, maybe even nine, maybe even 10. When you get rejections, you get this feeling of like,

“Am I alone? Does my work suck?”

But then if you talk to other writers and other people of your community, you realize that it is just part of the damn thing. So, when I first started submitting, I would be devastated. But actually, one of the lessons– I do not know if it was part of Writerly Love, or if it was part of Lit Mag Love, it was more of a self-care perspective when it comes to rejections. And so, I actually appreciated that because that course was like,

“Take the rejection, but don’t dwell on it”.

Like celebrate the fact that you have gotten a response, because some of those places do not respond. There is like, two poems of mine that I submitted way back in 2019, still have not gotten a response from the magazine. And now the magazine. I am pretty sure it is defunct. But I am like, I do not think I have ever had a thing published in there. I am also not going to name the magazine because that is just rude. I am like,

“Okay, well, I don’t know like a ‘No’ would have been nice or like not right now”.

Rachel Thompson: 14:56
Unfortunately, getting no feedback is not super are uncommon. I actually am a volunteer collective member of a magazine that never responded to all of my submissions in the early aughts. Lit mags are stretched thin and run by people often doing this work off the sides of their desks and lives. I love how Ellen though learn to appreciate just hearing anything back because of this. And I hope you are hearing what I am hearing from all these writers, which is being in community with other writers, connecting with other writers really helps them weather the rejection storm.

Ellen Chang-Richardson: 15:36
You feel alone in your rejection cloud, until you talk to other writers. Like “Yeah, yeah, it’s just part of it”. You got to take that, throw it away, move on.

Rachel Thompson: 15:47
And here’s Angela Wright again on this.

Angela Wright: 15:50
I would say that community is probably one of the most important things as a writer, I think, for me, had I not had a community of writers around me to support me, I would not have been successful because there were people who were pushing me. At one point, I had an accountability buddy, which is all about- even if we were not writing together, it was like, “What is your goal for this week? Okay, were you successful? Were you not successful?” Scheduling meetups with other writers, I also have someone who I would sit down with and will write grant applications for. We write different grants, sometimes it will be for the same grant, sometimes it will be for different ones. But to have people there just mostly for emotional support because writing can be very exhausting.

So, I would say the most important thing is community, whether it is a big group, I had writing groups that were really helpful, especially at the beginning, it was really helpful to get feedback on my writing before I was published. And then also just having people who will read your work. So, you can do writing swaps with different people. But yes, and then ultimately, at the end of the day, like people who you can bend to it, when something is not accepted. And yes, who will listen to you and your angry rants? Yes, so I would say community is the most important thing, I would say, the most important aspect of getting through writing and just building your writing career because ultimately, we need each other as writers, and we need other writers as well. And it is super important to have, if not a major community of writers. That is something like created through an MFA programme, have other writers around you. Just because people who are not writers do not understand. They just do not, they will be like,

“Oh, you haven’t published anything lately?”

It’s like,

“No, it takes time. It’s not just going to show up in a few weeks.”

You tell your parents,

“Oh, yes, I’m going to have a piece published in this thing.”

“Well, when’s it coming out?”

“Probably in six months.”

So, it is really important just to have other people who understand the process because people who are not writers do not understand the process at all. And they will ask very ridiculous questions and not really understand when you explain things to them.

Rachel Thompson: 18:17
I am interrupting these four luminous writers, all of whom are alumni of my course called Lit Mag Love, to let you know that if you have benefited from what you have learned in this or other episodes of this podcast about writing, and submitting your work to journals, you might be a good candidate for my course that is all about publishing in journals. The Lit Mag Love course will help you get a big ‘Yes’ for your writing from a literary journal. The five-week course runs twice per year. Our first session in 2022 starts February 1, so you have time to plan your course sessions for the new year. Lit Mag Love comes with lots of support and feedback.

You can learn all about the Lit Mag Love course, find out what writers say about working with me, and join the course waitlist to get exclusive enrollment offers at rachelthompson.co/litmaglove. Now back to the conversation with four luminous writers who are all alumni of the Lit Mag Love course, as they discuss handling rejection and writing community. We need other writers this is something all four writers in this episode agree upon. Here’s Hege again:

Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri: 19:29
Community really helps as I already explained in my daily Haiku practice. And having a group around me there has also taught me the importance of not stepping back from community when you get to rejection. The initial thing is that feeling of shame, and “Oh my God, I’m not good enough. I need to go back into my Rejection Grotto and sit there and ponder these things a little bit more”. When you do disclose this to a community, what happens is that it becomes just a thing out there in the world, this becomes this growth inside your head. And you can talk about it, and it becomes much less dangerous. But then when you have to grow out of that feeling.

Having a committee that cheers you on, and where you cheer others on, helps you also let go of some of the jealousy of others. I mean, seeing that and seeing others, I mean, when somebody else succeeds after a long time, just nothing, that is a pick me up for a week for me. And that does not [inaudible 20:20]. And just to give you an idea, and I have not been submitting to Qantas in Canada, but I check every single one, the long lists to see if somebody I know that I can cheer on. And cheering people on and sharing their experience of who they send their stuff to. I mean, the beehive knowledge of where to send your things and where they might sit in, is a thing of really great value as a writer, because you cannot know all these things yourself.

So, sharing the knowledge and sharing the successes and also the terrible blunders that we sometimes do. And normalizing “Yeah, you can really do something like that”. And still, the day after, it will be accepted by somebody great in a place where you didn’t believe it’d be accepted. There’s huge value in that. And I say that as somebody who would be an introvert in my writing, I would sit around it, cover my ears and eyes and not let anybody see it. I am genuinely happy for others when they have success. I do not feel that their success is making it more difficult for me to have success. It is almost a shared success. And having a group around you that you can share that, “Oh, I got a rejection. And I feel really sad”. And “Oh, what should I do about this thing?” It really helps me keep going.

Rachel Thompson: 21:58
Similarly, Lori Sebastianutti finds inspiration and not envy when she sees writers in our community succeed.

Lori Sebastianutti: 22:07
Being a part of Writerly Love, my own writing group, even Twitter to a lesser extent, knowing that, like we said, putting yourself out there, people will understand that people understand rejection, people understand the need to write the need to get your stories out. I think those are absolutely crucial, I think, too, what has been amazing to see is like, sometimes you start out with people around the same kind of, I don’t want to say level, but novice writers, and then you’re seeing some people, like go off and publish books, even like, and you’re seeing all the trials and tribulations in that, and you’re like, “Oh, one day, I hope to be there”, and you think “Okay, so I should expect this, I should expect that”. And so, I really do think it is crucial.

Rachel Thompson: 22:54
Still, each of these writers have their own personal, often really introspective ways of handling rejection. For Lori, her preparation for possible rejection comes even before she hears back from the journals, right when she hits that submit button.

Lori Sebastianutti: 23:11
I feel that a lot. I feel like I did like we talked about with CNF, I feel like I do need inspiration or kind of like a little push. And I usually go for a walk, I might say a little prayer. And I just kind of think to myself like “Okay, what’s the worst thing that can happen? If A, this gets rejected. B, it gets published, and people read it”, like, what’s the worst thing that can happen? And what is the best thing that can happen? A reader identifies with my story. So yes, I think it is a lot of thinking, a lot of reflection, prayer, and going for a walk, that really helps me, just looking at the trees and just thinking about it.

Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri: 23:53
So, what I do, first of all, I do not try to downplay the feelings I have. The feeling of hurt and of being rejected and worthless, I let them simmer for a few minutes. And then I tell myself to breathe, and I tell myself, “It’s okay to feel that”, and I put both the piece and the rejection away and go for a walk. Because walking helps me with almost everything. I usually do not- to reopen the piece again. But sometimes it is useful because I realized for instance, two rejections that was, ” Wow, how did that happen?” Last year, I realized I had sent the wrong version of the piece. I was supposed to send one and I sent another one, that was pre-edited one.

So that made me feel both like an idiot. But also, these are things that happen, and this is part of explaining, why I got that kind of rejection. So, I actually did that four different- I mean, it was one piece and I sent it four different ones. I withdrew from the other two when I realized that I had sent the wrong version. Like months later. I usually try to concentrate on something else that are written and free-write a bit and get the flow. There is one thing that these reductions do all that self-doubt, will very often put you in a position where you start self-editing is doubting every word that comes out of your keyboard or pen. So, getting the flow going again, is one of the first things I need to reestablish after that hurt.

Ellen Chang-Richardson: 25:26
My process is that I have a sub folder in my inbox. So, it is a sub folder, and it is called ‘literary submissions’. And anytime I get a rejection, I look at it, and I immediately move it to that folder, and I just forget about it, or at least I try to do.

Angela Wright: 25:44
My strategies for rejection have been: One, I would say, is not to take things personal. It is always hard, especially when you are writing CNF. And you are writing about your own life, as I often do, it can feel like a rejection of your story or a rejection of your life. And so, yes, it is trying to remember that we are also professional writers. And so, this is like a professional rejection. It is not a personal rejection. And it is also not necessarily a rejection of the quality of the work. There is some people who- there are some editors who just do not get certain things. Not all editors are good. That is an important thing to remember. Yes, not all elders are good. Not all editors understand different ways of living in this world, just different ways of understanding and processing what happens in this world. Other than that, I would say, two is celebrating my wins, I think, a lot.

Even if it is something that is published online, I actually have a binder of all of my publications, so copy and paste it into a Word doc, and I will print it out. And so, I have got kind of a portfolio with all of my publications. And so, I am having this ritual around. Every time that I publish something, make sure I put it in my CV. And so, it is kind of like, really getting into any sort of publication and really taking the time to celebrate and bask in any win, is very helpful when it comes to dealing with rejection, especially if you are rejected by an editor or publication that you really respect and admire, that can be certainly difficult.

Rachel Thompson: 25:51
I love what Angela does around really celebrating those wins. Those publication ‘Yes’s’ feel great. But you probably noticed, they are not as sticky in our minds as the ‘No’s’ we experience. So, whatever you can do to make them more sticky, to hold on to the celebratory moments is wonderful. Of course, sometimes the rejection gets to be too much. And it is time to take stock. Here’s Angela Wright again:

Angela Wright: 27:56
There have definitely been times where I have said,

“Not now I need a break”.

The hardest thing I think about being a writer is that it is very difficult to sustain a practice and also be able to live life. I lived in Toronto, which is where I kind of started my literary career. And it is a very expensive city. And yes, it can be very difficult when you are trying to devote enough time to writing while also trying to pay your rent and pay your bills. If it were not for grants that I got through the Ontario Arts Council and the Canada Council for the Arts, I would not have been able to work as a writer full time. But what I found is that it can be very exhausting, and even if you are successful with grants, you have to apply every year.

And yes, and so there has definitely been moments where I said, I need something that is more sustainable, I need something that will allow me to be able to take a break and not have to worry about whether or not I am going to be able to pay my bills, I would say on average, it takes me at least 10 to 15 hours to put together like a solid grant application. But for some of them, it can take up to 30-40 hours, which is a lot of time. It works out if you are successful, but it is a lot of time to devote to something that is not a sure thing.

Rachel Thompson: 29:25
So, there you have four writers, on how they handle rejection with lots of different approaches and ideas, but also one big underlying under community. I want to give the final word for this episode to Hege, about one of the big benefits of practicing submitting, of making mistakes of putting yourself out there of handling whatever comes when you do, as she describes her own personal development.

Hege A. Jakobsen Lepri: 29:53
I feel that, failing and showing that it is human and writerly human. If you are writerly human being. It is, okay. It is okay to do that. It is okay to screw up your cover letter. And you are not the only person in the world has done that. I think there has been a tremendous growth in me, as a person as I slowly start to let up on that control and allow other people in. And that is fair when I am writing. Writing and failing and sometimes succeeding. And yes, everybody has their own path. And I am sure there are others that and in a different corners saying,

“I don’t care about validation”.

So, I will self-publish, or people are so Zen, they do not even care about being published. They go to open houses and read beautiful poetry, but they do not care about that publishing. So, I think the path needs to be found individually, depending on where you want to go, that I want my writing to be out in the world. And I want the writing to be as good as possible and be in the place where it fits best. And for that community has been really crucial and my understanding of how to do that.

Rachel Thompson: 31:07
My Lit Mag Love course will help you get a big yes for your writing from a lit mag you love. Get ahead in your plans to publish in 2022 by joining the waitlist today, you will get special enrollment offers. If you do, learn more about the course and get on the waitlist at rachelthompson.co/litmaglove.

31:27
The Write, Publish and Shine podcast is brought to you by me, Rachel Thompson. You can learn more about the work I do to help writers write, publish and shine at rachelthompson.co. When you are there, sign up for my Writerly Love letters they are sent every other week and filled with support for your writing practice.

31:45
Our podcast production assistant is Tamara Zhang, who patiently helped gather all the interviews for this episode. Thank you again tomorrow for being such an incredible literary citizen and inspiring us with your support of writers in our community.

32:00
If this episode encouraged you to join the beehive community of writers, to persist with your dreams, to publish in lit mags, or even to take a much-needed break, I would love to hear from you. You can tag me on social media. I am @RachelThompson on Twitter, and @RachelThompsonAuthor on Instagram, and tell other luminous writers about the episode. You can do this by sending them to the podcast at rachelthompson.co/podcast, or searching for Write, Publish and Shine, wherever they get their podcast. Thank you for listening. I encourage you to find that growth and feel all the feelings as you write and publish, what you are meant to write and publish.

32:41
My guests spoke to us from Oslo, Norway, from the land of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation, colonially known as Ottawa, Canada, from the traditional territory of many nations including the Mississauga of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples in so called Toronto, Ontario and the traditional territories of the Erie, Neutral, Huron-Wendat, Haudenosaunee and Mississauga in what is colonially known as Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Myself, I am a guest in the South Sinai Egypt on lands, historically and presently occupied by the Al-Tirabin Bedouin.